Ronnie Fox a UK lawyer, discusses how choosing his niche carefully helped him to build his personal brand during his long and successful career. Here’s a link to his law firm - www.foxlawyers.com

• Became partner of a top twenty law firm two years post qualification
•  In March 1989 set up his own firm with colleagues and ended up specialising in employment work
• Developed an interest in the psychological aspect of employment work which led to moving into partnership work
• Formed the Association of Partnership Practitioners in 1998
• The Association of Partnership Practitioners contributed to the development of the Limited Liabilities Partnership Act in 2000
• Edited and wrote the preface for a book on Retirement and Planning for Retirement. 
• The link to his book

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Shireen: Hello, and welcome to Brand Tuned, successful brands successful business, the show for entrepreneurs and brand creators, where we discuss personal and business Brands to give you ideas and inspiration for your own brand. I'm Shireen Smith, lawyer, entrepreneur, author, and advocate for developing purpose based brands to change. Ronnie Fox is a city solicitor specializing in partnership and employment law at Fox and partners. He's built a formidable reputation during his career. So in this episode, I'm going to be asking him about how he built his own brand, and also that of his business. So Ronnie, welcome to this podcast.

Ronnie: Thank you.

Shireen: How did you start your career? Do you want to just take me back to the very beginning?

Ronnie: I've been very fortunate, I joined a top 20 firm to do my training contract, which was then called articles. And it worked out well. And just two years after I qualified, the partner with whom I work most closely, decided to leave and join an investment bank. There was a hole I filled it and I became a partner after two years qualification.

Shireen: That's so you were lucky to some extent

Ronnie: I was. Then in 1988, that firm Oppenheimer's merged with another firm, and I wasn't too keen on the merged firm. And after giving it my best shot for a few months, I decided to leave. And in March 1989, set up a firm of my own together with colleagues. And that worked out really well.

Shireen: So, so what actually inspired you to go into law in the first place?

Ronnie: There were two things. The first was a generalized desire to help people. The second was that when as children, we played games, I was always the one that read the rules knew that you could mortgage a property when playing Monopoly. And how to challenge a word in Scrabble, when I sort of sublimated this interest in the rules, and decided to read law at university.

Shireen: Right, so how old were you when you thought you might want to take up a legal career?

Ronnie: About 12? Actually, it really never seriously considered any other career. I've always wanted to be a lawyer. I've always loved being a lawyer.

Shireen: Wow. So you've moved on now and set up your own law firm with a few colleagues?

Ronnie: hat was in 1989. And then, in 2005, my then colleagues decided that they would move in one direction and become a full service law firm. I've always been worried about the future for small full service law firms. I decided I wanted to specialize in a relatively narrow field. And I decided to leave and set up another law firm, which was then called just Fox, and is now Fox and partners.

Shireen: Right. So when did you begin specializing in a particular area of the law?

Ronnie: Well, I was a corporate transactional lawyer, doing a broad range of company commercial work. At my first firm, where I did my training contract, and my vision, initially, when I started, my firm in 1989, was to become a corporate and commercial boutique. The first employment job came in and I looked around and I said, Who would like to do this? And they all said you. So I started doing employment work and I became more and more interested in the people aspect, the psychological aspect of doing employment work. And I wrote a book on how to calculate what people were entitled to receive when they left employment. I got more and more employment work in the Employment Department became the biggest department of the firm. And then people started approaching me with partnership issues, where indeed, the psychological elements are even more important. And I became interested in that in 1998, I set up the association of partnership practitioners. And I said to myself, if we can attract 100 People who are interested in partnership work, that will be a success. Well, the Association of partnership practitioners is still going, we have around 300 members. I spend a lot of my time doing quite sophisticated partnership work and employment work. And that's what I enjoy doing.

Shireen: Okay, so what motivated you to write a book? Did you think it might be good for your career? Or what exactly was the motivation behind that?

Ronnie: Well, when I started what is now Fox and partners in 2006, my plan was always to work out a path towards retirement. And on the first of January 2019, with the agreement of my colleagues, I will wound down to about two days per month working. Right. Six months later, a publisher approached me and said, Well, you're as near retirement as dammit. So why don't you just a book for US on the subject department of retirement? I thought that's an interesting challenge. And that has turned into the book, which was published a couple of days ago on partner retirement in law firms and strategies for our professional firms as well.

Shireen: Right. Well, we'll definitely have a note of that in the show notes. But was this your second book that you wrote, or?

Ronnie: Well, I wrote three editions of the book of termination of employment, payments on termination of employment, it's called. So available. I wrote five chapters, four different books that were published by the people. This book, The latest one I've edited, I should be fair to my contributors, who worked extremely hard and produced a wonderful piece of work. And I edited their contributions. I selected the contributors, and I wrote a preface.

Shireen: Okay, what do you think was the secret of your success running? And how did you manage to get so many clients and become known?
I've always believed in team working, I haven't taken on a professional job on my own. For great many years, I've always enjoyed working as part of a team. I've enjoyed the mentoring part, and bringing up relatively recently qualified people and growing them into standalone lawyers, and I may in good stead, because clients like the fact that there's not one lawyer, but a team of lawyers working for them.

Ronnie: Okay, so when you set up your firm in 2006, intending to retire, you knew that you would also be mentoring some of your future partners, I guess?
Yes, I, I set up with three lawyers and three secretaries. person, and I gave myself 10 years to actually agree terms for a transfer of the business. To my younger colleagues. Well, during those years, I was lucky enough to be joined by a number of extremely able people. And after 11 years, as it turned out, in June 2017, I transferred the business to them, and gradually wound down to my present two days per month.

Shireen: Good. What would you advise a young person who is now setting up in their career? How would they, I mean, what is a personal brand? For example, were you ever aware of such a thing? How did you regard personal brands?

Ronnie: Well, I've always thought that my name should stand for something of which I should be proud of and try and leave a legacy. I've made exceptional efforts to keep colleagues happy A. And I've studied in an informal way, psychology. I believe that one of the great gaps in the training of professional people, and particularly lawyers is that they don't study human nature. They're ignorant of psychology. That was one aspect. A second was the focus on what I enjoyed doing. For example, it's never been a part of my life's ambition to complete a VAT return.
Shireen: I wonder whose ambition it is.

Ronnie: Some people seek it as part of setting up a practice. But even when I started, what is now Fox and partners, I had an Accounts person helping me from day one, to do the bank reconciliations and the VAT returns and so on.

Shireen: It's so important to delegate isn't it, and to just focus on what you're good at.

Ronnie: Exactly, exactly what you're good at, and what you enjoy doing. The course of my partnership work, I've met a great many lawyers who actually don't enjoy what they're doing. But it was not until their mid 40s, that they discovered that they didn't actually enjoy the work. But they're trapped, too deep in, they've got responsibilities to others. And they don't know what else to do. I've been very, very lucky, in that I've always been able to focus on what I enjoy doing.

Shireen: That's quite remarkable. How have you done that?

Ronnie: Part of it is introspection. Part of it is looking at my colleagues, and trying to identify where their strengths are greater than mine, and passing on those elements of the work which play to their strengths. And allow me time to play to my Is that a fair answer?

Shireen: Sure, is, yes. What's your management style?

Ronnie: Well, I like to think it's encouraging colleagues to participate in determining the direction of the practice. It's allowing people to do what they're good at. And it's allowing people the freedom to say what they think, without fear of retribution. I've been very lucky to have the colleagues that work with me today have worked with me for over 40 years. They followed me from firm to firm.

Shireen: That's remarkable.

Ronnie: Perhaps I treat them to gently, but I don't think so.

Shireen: Do you give harsh feedback ever if somebody needs to?

Ronnie: I like to think that I'm fair. And sometimes that means telling people that I don't think they're moving in the right direction.

Shireen: We'll take a short break at this point, as I'd like to mention the Brand Tuned series of webinars, which support founders to think through their brand, taking IP into account at the right time, which is good for you make firm decisions about what to create, just visit brand tuned.com. And the webinars are reference right there on the homepage. Okay, back to the podcast. How did you approach branding your businesses? I mean, I know you had the name, Fox and partners, but what was your approach to the brand of the business? Did you ever even think of the brand?

Ronnie: I did. And I use the symbol of a running Fox. A lot of our publicity material. In our meeting room. There is always a bowl containing foxes glassier mints I refer to as our marketing budget. And I encourage people to work together as a team, not in silos. We're all part of the same group. And the name of that group is foxon partners.

Shireen: How do clients know what to expect? I mean, did you think about what promise to want to make to customers to your clients? When you in the earlier days? Was it actually thought through? Or did it just happen by pure chance?

Ronnie: We adopted values from the outset. Right. And those values include putting client's interests in front of our own, which ought to be axiomatic for any professional but I'm afraid often isn't these days? Yeah. And I've discovered that what has helped me enormously, especially when it comes to the difficult issue of fees, is to put myself in the position of a client and say, what would I regard as fair? If I were the client? Now, that doesn't always work. But it's been a great assistance to me.

Shireen: So how have you tended to charge by the hour or?

Ronnie: By the hour, but always with an eye on the cost benefit ratio? And if I say that two o'clock client, what is your objective? And then talk about the cost of achieving that objective. And the amount of money which the client is likely to receive, we can often weigh up whether it makes sense to go down a particular path right at the outset.

Shireen: Right, this is for litigation proceedings?

Ronnie: Litigation for any kind of dispute, for any kind of document preparation. I try and look in a commercial way of the cost benefit ratio, how much will it cost in legal fees? What benefit will the client get? That's a commercial way of looking at it. But since so many of our clients are business people, they seem to appreciate that.

Shireen: And how did you distinguish your firm from other employment and partnership? Did you do anything in particular, to position yourself differently?

Ronnie: Well, one key was specialization. When I started working on Golden Handshake work, as I described it, there were very, very few exclusively employment lawyers. But when the Employment Lawyers Association was formed, the quarter of employment lawyers grew and grew. But partnership was different. partnership work wasn't really recognized as a speciality on its own. And people came to me and said, Well, you went from one partnership to another, you were in a partnership that merged, you must have learned something about partnership, Ronnie. And when the number of employment lawyers belonging to the Employment Lawyers Association, went into the 1000s, I thought I would focus on partnership work, and building recognition for partnership where as a separate area of expertise.

Shireen: Right, so you have actually carefully managed your skills?

Ronnie: I've tried to do so. And again, I've had a couple of strokes of luck. I formed the association of partnership practitioners in 1998. With a colleague who has since become a leading practitioner in that field, Claire Murray. And discussion started about the ability of a professional practice to limit its liability. And within a year or two, the Limited Liability Partnerships Act, became law is actually became law in the year 2000s. The Association of partnership practitioners contributed to what was enacted, and we became a leader in that field. And at the time, there were a lot of commercial lawyers and litigation, lawyers and employment lawyers dabbling in partnership work. I like to think we help to achieve recognition in the guides and they'll swear for partnership work as a separate area of expertise, and to position ourselves as a leader in that field.

Shireen: Right. So you've distinguished yourself through your knowledge and skills, would you recommend that young lawyers should do the same? Or should they get broad experience initially?

Ronnie: Broad experience initially, and then focus on a particular area, which they enjoy, and where they feel they have something to contribute.

Shireen: And you took a leadership position there by forming an association. Do you think that was pivotal to your success?

Ronnie: I think that played a significant part in securing separate chapters on partnership in leading guides, like the legal 500 and chambers, it was certainly a great help. And I was the first chairman of the association. And I think it helped. I think it helped.

Shireen: And it's quite fitting now that you've written a book on retirement. So did you write the entire book or did you edit it, you know, get contributors?

Ronnie: I only wrote the preface. Okay, that is my own work. But the other chapters are all contributed by people whom I asked to write about retirement and planning for retirement?

Shireen: Are they actually advised or people who've retired?

Ronnie: Mostly people who advise that two chapters written by lawyers, one chapter written about retirement from the firm's point of view, another written about retirement, from the individuals point of view, those two chapters are written by lawyers, then accountants have written a couple of chapters, one about the commercial and accounting implications, and another about the tax implications. And then there are three other chapters, one written by a wealth manager, who emphasizes the importance of planning for a comfortable retirement, a second written by a psychotherapist on how to deal with the changes in one's life, which come with retirement. And the third written by somebody who is a career analyst and a career planner. And he helps people think about and plan their careers and their retirement, and treat retirement as a new career.

Shireen: Right. So what will your project be in retirement or don't you feel the need to have some sort of project in your life?

Ronnie: I always feel the need for some projects. And some of them are leisure, my granddaughter's teaching with a piano. Lovely, she is grade seven or nine grade nothing at all. I'm reading books. In the course of my professional practice, when I was working full time, I never had time to read for pleasure. But now I do get time to read for pleasure. I'm spending a lot of time with the family, my wife, my two children, my four grandchildren. And I'm very, very fortunate in that my son and his family, and my daughter and her family all live nearby. And then I've got a couple of other ideas for books.

Shireen: So you're going to be writing books will you?

Ronnie: Well, I've got a couple of ideas which may turn into books

Shireen: Will they be on law or toasties? Different?

Ronnie: One will be on law. It'll be it's in the planning stage. It's about things that I've learned during my career which might possibly be a value to my younger colleagues.

Shireen: To people starting their careers.

Ronnie: People starting their careers, people in the midst of their careers. And dare I say it people planning for progress throughout their careers and retirement.

Shireen: Yeah, I'm sure you've got a few tips that you can pass on and knowledge thought would be really useful. So you actually writing a book proposal for it?

Ronnie: I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. I also want to include some commentary on things that I see happening. There'll be one chapter called Has the world gone mad. And it will be about the things like the enormous amount realized by the sale of film stars, old clothes. Olivia Newton, John start in Greece. And her wardrobe was recently sold at auction for hundreds of 1000s of pounds. Wow, is that amazing? Yeah. Then I see some other things, which are very much at all odds with the way things used to be. As many of those things are great improvements. But there are other things which are not improvements. Perhaps there'll be a chapter in my book on those things.

Shireen: I'll be very interested. If you do write that book. It sounds excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Great. Well, thank you very much for appearing on this podcast today, Ronnie, we will definitely have a title of the book that you've edited in the show notes, and also details of this podcast. So very nice to have spoken with you today. Ronnie.

Ronnie: Thank you very much. Shareen I really enjoy. Great.

Shireen: Thank you for listening to this episode of Brand Tuned, where we aim to answer the question. What does it take to create a successful business and brand? I'd love it. If you would take a moment to give me a review. If you have any questions, send me a message. You can find me on LinkedIn, or most other social media platforms, or on my personal website, shireensmith.com.