Chrissie Lightfoot is a prominent international legal figure, entrepreneur, author and CEO of Robot Lawyer LISA. She has written two books including - The Naked Lawyer and Tomorrow’s Naked Lawyer.

• Started in business before training as a lawyer in her mid-30s and used her own personal brand to bring in clients for the solicitor’s practice where she did her training.
• After the launch of her first book, The Naked Lawyer in late 2010, she was asked to speak at a number of legal events around the world.
• Has worked with many solicitors and barristers at different stages of their careers to help them with their personal branding
• Has worked remotely with lawyers worldwide, mentoring them to niche themselves and dovetail their personal brand with their company's strategy.
• Uses the brand triage - strong personal brand, strong product brand and strong company brand to increase reach and depth of reach
• Developed Robot Lawyer LISA in 2017 to help automate legal agreements online
• Chrissie admires Oprah Winfrey for the way she uses her brand to bring about positive change as well as David Beckham for his use of his personal brand.
• Get The Naked Lawyer and Tomorrow’s Naked Lawyer.

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Shireen: Hello and welcome to Brand Tuned, successful brands successful business, the show for entrepreneurs and brand creators, where we discussed personal and business Brands to give you ideas and inspiration for your own brand. I'm Shireen Smith, lawyer, entrepreneur, author, and advocate for developing purpose based brands to change. Chrissie Lightfoot is a prominent international legal figure and entrepreneur turned solicitor, and back again as CEO of entrepreneur lawyer. She's written several books, including The Naked lawyer and tomorrow's naked lawyer. During her career, she has built a formidable personal brand and help lawyers with their brands. In this episode, I'm going to be asking Chrissy to tell us how she went about doing that, as it's highly relevant in today's changing world for us all to build our personal brands, rather than having faceless businesses. So I'm really happy to welcome you here today. Chrissy Lighfoot, hello.

Chrissie: Hi, Shereen. Really pleased to be here as well. Thank you for inviting me and happy to share.

Shireen: So let's start at the beginning. What was your first job? Were you already doing this branding work before you took up yours or career? How was it your career before then?

Chrissie: In all honesty, no. Prior to becoming a lawyer, I was involved in a number of different industries, I was in the printing press, the digital printing area, I was in the leisure industry working in a country club. I've worked in the leisure industry in a health club. What I would say though, is you know, prior to becoming a lawyer, in all of those industries, and when I was doing consultancy, even my forte tended to fall on the side of marketing and branding. It was just a natural skill set and understanding. So I was I was naturally working in the innovation of marketing and using new ways. For example, you know, with the internet, and even using email the on the on the massive email that people started to go online to start marketing and selling. I had an internet business around 2000. So you know, I was always experimenting with new ways and innovative ways of marketing. And and that invariably included branding and PR as well. So how to get clients how to keep clients and all rest of it. So progression that naturally in one side, trained to become a solicitor, I was using the skills where I'd been successful in different roles in other industries and brought those into my role as a trainee solicitor that helped support the law firm I was currently with at that time.

Shireen: Why do you do choose to qualify as a lawyer?

Chrissie: I think I've come to a point in my life where as a business woman, I had experienced roles in operations and marketing and sales, HR, even even accountancy strategy was a big one. And I noticed that in all of my roles, and the businesses, I'd be involved in, up until my mid 30s. Before I did try to become a lawyer, where law was an integral part of being in business. And and I always wanted to have an understanding of well, you know, in business, the legal aspect was fundamental to helping the company succeed. in lots of ways, obviously, regarding employees and employer legal issues, obviously, IP was a big issue, you know, how to protect and exploit intellectual property in your business. And then the basic company law, corporate law, statutory things you have to do in a business and how you run your company and corporate governance and all rest of it. And I actually found I had a keen interest in understanding more about that. So I decided, just a change of a journey, really, in my mid 30s. I thought, actually, maybe it's the right time now for me to study law and understand so I can actually use all of those skill sets. You know, as I matured further and went into business again, I always envisioned I would go back into business. I didn't really know what my route is going to be as a traditional lawyer, let's call it that. But I did want to really get under the hood of a law firm and and understand from a lawyer side, why they went about doing things the way they did when they were advising businesses which which at that point, to time, I felt there was a huge gap in the market that a lot of businesses in the UK were underserved or neglected by, you know, law, the lawyers, the traditional set of the law firms back in that point in time. So I always had a vision that maybe if I understood more about that, then I may be able to be an entrepreneurial lawyer. Hence, you know, my brand, ultimate lawyer. You know, as a lawyer, I could serve entrepreneurs. But then obviously, when I became an entrepreneur, again, I could actually work with lawyers and sell it, that there's a new way to be more entrepreneurial, and how you can get your message out there, how you can relate to customers and clients and particularly SMEs and what have you. So I did have a kind of idea of what I wanted to do once I had studied the law and become a solicitor. But I was unsure as to how that was going to pan out. I just wanted to have lots of options.

Shireen: How did the decision to write naked lawyer come about? Oh, all right.

Chrissie: Well, that was it was one side finished my training as a solicitor, my training contract, because at that point in time, we get the the global recession had hit, I did my training contract between 2006 in 2009. And obviously, we had the property market falling in 2006 to eight and then we had the global crisis 2008 onwards, and I've got the end of my training. And throughout the last year of my training, once I'd finished my LPC anyway, I focused heavily on trying to help the firm I was at get more clients and keep clients have got and use new techniques in marketing to myself use my own personality and my personal brand new and I was devising back then, and a new model as to how to attract clients using online methods, social media, social networks and rest of it. So I've actually achieved something that was quite unique at that point in time where I was using my personal brand in the marketplace online and offline, which was successful in attracting new clients to the law firm I was working with. And then when it got to the end of my training, I decided that for my future, what was best was I could see there was a huge gap in the marketplace that there was a real need for lawyers to to understand how to market brands sell themselves so they could do a similar model that I had actually proven whilst I was in the law firm. And I could see it was a much needed process because at that point in time, obviously with a global recession then forms although the firm's although the batten down the hatches and slashed marketing budgets and innovation budgets and wanting to slash costs, and really just try and keep lean and muddle through a very difficult financial period. As I as I came at the end of a training contract, and then branched out on my own with my new company, which was all about helping support lawyers and barristers solicitors. students think about new ways and innovative ways of actually attracting clients and keeping them in this new digital age that was obviously on the horizon. So it was a natural progression. And I thought, well, how is the best way to go about getting my message out, you know, what I didn't how I did it. And then the idea of the book, that was it, and because obviously a book will reach many people very quickly, once it's written. And it's just a case of obviously marketing and getting out there. And then using the book really as a launchpad to then actually work and consult more closely with those innovative lawyers who could see that this is a new and better way to actually relate to clients and keep clients. So that was it, really.

Shireen: So how did you use your personal brand to attract clients, you know, both online and offline before you wrote the book.

Chrissie: It was a it was a sales process that I'd learned when I was in the healthcare industry. I have actually documented it in full in the naked lawyer into 10 steps, it's a sales process really does start with really knowing yourself. You know, personal brand begins with being you know, authentically yourself. But a lot of people really struggle with the work that I've put into Chapter Two for if you're a reader to actually work through chapter two, that is a really chunky chapter that really gets under the skin of the reader to really think about themselves and think about what are their strengths? What are the opportunities, you know, forget about the weaknesses and the threats but really to work on themselves as an individual. And from that, once read, identified who they are, what they are, what what what's their real passion, what is it they really want to focus on, then you can get into the nuts and bolts of really finding out what is going to be your niche. So you really have to find a niche Should the niche of a niche even in order to stand out, you know to be a big fish in a small pond rather than be a small fish amongst 7 billion people kind of thing. So moving from, you know, knowing yourself to having a niche, once you've got that, then you can start devising that personal brand. So that's really how your ideal client is going to connect with you, and resonate with you. And the kind of messaging that you want to reach out to them. So you don't have to actually push stuff to them, they will naturally come to you. So that's about how you then use your strapline personal brand, let's call it that online, to attract your ideal client that starts to come to you. And from that, you know, your personal brand, is really a resonance of, of your ultimate connection with your client, if that makes sense. So you know, moving from, you know, your authentic self, to find that niche to developing your personal brand, to finding that space online that hasn't been occupied, that that sits with your personal brand. So entrepreneur, lawyer, chrysolite, for the entrepreneur lawyer, for example, if you did a search in Google for the word entrepreneur and lawyer together are two separate words together, back in 2007 2008, it didn't even come up on Google. So you never found it, assuming it was it was a complete free space. So I thought, well, that's a market that you can create. Because you know, there's entrepreneurs out there looking for lawyers. So you know, you can actually start to actually create the market. So whereas now, if you do a search for entrepreneur, lawyer, you'll find pages deep in Google, where you've got those kinds of terms. So it's, it's about, you know, trying to think smartly, about how to position yourself so that you can be unique in a space. And then what you do then is actually or what I did was, you create some content in authoritative sources. So some of the key magazines, or the key, and, obviously, the mainstream press if you can, because you know, you're not talking about yourself, you're really talking about the successes and how you've helped other people or help clients. So you know, people are interested in the story of you, but they're also interested in the success stories of how you've helped people. So you know, going from getting the book out there, to helping the lawyers to then putting a lot more content on LinkedIn and Twitter in particular. Then obviously, there was a natural crescendo of activity. And then obviously, with the book being out there, I was asked to go and speak all around the world, different countries where there was a real appetite and interest that lawyers or associations are keen to hear about this new way, or improved way of how we could use digital media, basically, to help to help the lawyers actually make that step to relate with their clients in a, in a way, that is the way the world right now, as well.

Shireen: True. And so what sort of clients were you attracting?

Chrissie: A whole range, actually Shareen it was, it was really interesting. I mean, I was quite surprised. From day one, once the book was out there, I think it was launched end of November, early December 2010. And in the run up to that, I did actually put chapter one out for free about six months prior to the actual launch of the book, simply to, to whet the appetite, and to get a feel from readers that they liked the tone and the feel of it and where it was headed. So there was an expectation in the marketplace as to what the naked lawyer was going to be. And so once it was actually out there and available, I got asked by alpma, which is the Australian Legal Practice Management Association, to keynote in their major conference that coming year, that would have been 2011. So I was straight out the traps, they were quite surprised that, you know, jettison straight into a high level leading event over in Australia. And then from that I got asked to speak in New Zealand, and then places in Europe and South America and Scandinavia. So over the following three or four years from the naked lawyer, and it's still being bought now. I mean, it's 10 years now, because it's it's actually just as relevant now as it was then and if not more, because you know that the reason for the naked lawyer was it's all about the soft skills that lawyers will need because in later years, ie now, a lot of technology will start to do what lawyers do. Therefore, you know, the skill sets that the technology can't do is that soft skills, empathy, creativity kind of stuff that humans really good at. So it was really quite surprised and so the range that once I, you know, started to generate some speaking gigs or speaking gigs were with large associations, league associations, you No, there are a lot of events or barristers, chambers events, or even just digital events or business events, public events where people want to understand understand about the legal sector and what was happening there. You know, so it was a whole range and technology from about 2014 2015, I was being asked to go and speak at more technology related events where some of their clients were lawyers, law firms, or GCS, and corporates because I've worked with GCS and corporates, I've worked with individual lawyers or groups of lawyers in, you know, the top 100, while the Magic Circle even so, you know, top six are top 100, or top 200, in most of the nations around the world. And but also, I've worked with individuals, so qualified solicitors, and barristers of all ages and all stages of their career. So whether they're newly qualified, or associates or partners, or those who were looking for retirement even, because they were then thinking about their own personal brands as to where they're headed next, to get some net rolls, or that kind of thing to actually be seen, and how to position themselves. So taking their expertise and getting the message out there as to what is their forte. So I've been blessed in working with a range of people. I've obviously worked with the universities and the colleges of law as well. I've worked behind the scenes with the establishment in various matters as well, you know, working on things to think about the future, because obviously, we're in my legal futurist hat. You know, you've got to think about the regulation, the regulatory framework and the environment that we're in now and where we're headed as well. Because obviously, with the idea of robot by Lisa, that came about with having worked with lawyers and barristers, and seen where there was barriers and resistance to embrace technology. So you know, moving on to how the idea of robotics came about. That was very much the stepping in from working with technology companies. So I was a consultant and working with the legal tech companies that wanted to convince lawyers and law firms that should be embracing legal tech and low tech, you know, law tech is in allowing consumers and businesses to self serve self help DIY, legal service, basically, because it's a big neglected market. So I've worked on, let's call it both sides have kind of been the human interface between the legal sector and the technology companies and businesses, with a foot in both camps where you know, basically bringing relationships between the two together, so that we're moving on to into the digital age and the age of AI and robotics and what have you so that humans and machines can work together to better serve their clients.

Shireen: We'll take a short break, as I'd like to mention the Brand Tuned series of webinars, which support founders to think through their brand, taking IP into account at the right time, which is good for you make firm decisions about what to create, just visit brand tuned.com. And the webinars are referenced right there on the homepage. Okay, back to the pod.

Have you helped lawyers, I'm sure you must have who have more ordinary commoditized kind of skills to be more distinctive and to develop their personal brands? And if so, how have you helped them to do that?

Chrissie: Yes, of course, I mean, the early days in 2010, immediately once the book was out there up until well, I still do so over the last 10 years has been very much from 2010 to about 2016. The majority of my time was working directly with individuals or groups of lawyers in law firms. So in a mix of working with them, to help them devise their personal brands that dovetail nicely with their firm's strategy. So the firm's brand and their strategy and where they were headed with key clients and key sectors and how all that works. So I was directly working with them in the strategic capacity as well as a hands on helping identify what would be their niche and their personal brand. And then obviously, even supporting in the content and the messaging that's going out there and helping raise their profile. So their brand profile or brand awareness will help you sometimes writing content on their behalf in the ghosting capacity as well. So you know that that is something that that I did a lot of in 2010 16. I started to make the switch of doing more on the technology side of things from 2015 16 to present because base declared with a new venture robot lawyer, Lisa, I was working as a law tech provider to business people, in conjunction with human lawyers, if that makes sense. So, but even along that timeframe, I've been a mentor, you know, consultant and a mentor to individual lawyers remotely throughout the world. You know, I've, I've mentored people in New Zealand, for example, you know, on a regular basis, to get them to where they want to get to, which was part of positioning themselves with their brand, as well as their technological projects as well. So it's kind of been a mixed bag of mentorship, consultancy, content creation, personal brand, and marketing, helping them develop that as well as actively doing some of that on their behalf to help raise their profile, so that other potential clients are aware of these lawyers that are actually let's say, putting their heads above the ground and putting themselves out there. And, and quite welcoming the idea of having having an online personal brand and persona that their potential new clients can relate to.

Shireen: So a brand is very poorly understood. In my experience, most people think it's a logo, do you actually do workshops to help people to understand what it actually is as a business tool?

Chrissie: Yes, yeah, I focus very much on the personal brand, and how that dovetails nicely into the company brand, that they're working within that umbrella, if that makes sense. And that's absolutely critical and crucial as well, because there has to be a synergy between the two. So I think the best example I can give is I talk about a brand trio, actually, you know, so that you will be successful in how you go about relating with existing clients as well as new clients. new clients can relate to the firm brand, let's call it the company brand, they could relate to a product brand, such as one it might be Robert Lloyd Lisa, and an NDA product or the naked lawyer book, for example. And then is new the personal brand. So, people either remember you the person or the product related to a company or you the person or the actual company. And a good example of that is a lot of corporates or blue chip companies will probably know of the main magic circle firms in the UK is to pick up the ft or the times or guardian or whatever telegraph. If the see Clifford chance or Allen and overy or slaughter, main bandied around, they recognize that law firm has a strong brand. And those firms are known for X, Y, and Zed. But the, you know, vast majority of the public one have a clue, you know, because it won't be reading those kinds of broadsheet papers or media, and don't really know or care about a law firm brand. They're not interested. But they will have seen some lawyer online, on LinkedIn, or wherever, and they've got to know the person. So there's a strong personal brand there, because there's a presence, a personal presence. Or some people might have had a third party recommendation when they're playing on Facebook one day, and seeing somebody recommend a book that they're reading, such as the naked lawyer, and one have heard of Chris alive with the entrepreneur, lawyer, or entrepreneur, lawyer limited, but they'll have remembered the name of the book. So when you say, oh, have you heard of such a such a sin? I've got to play what's entrepreneur, lawyer? But if you say, Oh, well, have you heard of the necklace? Oh, yeah, further naked lawyer, that kind of thing. So I think that the most powerful way to actually get a brand out there, it has to be a brand triage, it has to be a really strong personal brand, such as Krissy life that the entrepreneur lawyer, or Gary has seen the image lawyer, or, you know, there's lots of other examples out there. I think my good friend over in America, Mitch Jackson, he was known as streaming lawyer, because he does a lot of law podcasts and video examples, that kind of thing. So a strong personal brand together with a strong product brand to hang your hat on as well. And then it's all about the company brand, you build the company brand as a result of having a strong personal brand and a strong product brand. And that's how I was successful in actually, you know, starting with, you know, Christian life with the entrepreneur lawyer getting my name and profile out there as how I was helping clients at that point in time. And then I produced the book. So the naked lawyer book was a product brand. And then only at that point was obviously I had a company called entrepreneur lawyer, that people would start to connect all three. So it meant they meant that I had a much bigger reach or depth of reach, and more people would understand The person, the product and the company, and therefore you will be found online or offline. Because if people were talking as third party ambassadors, if you've got three prongs, where new clients can reach you, it's better than just having one. So I think I think the point I'm trying to make is, if you just have a company brand, a firm brand, it's not enough. Nowadays, it really is so important that it's you as the individual are representing that company, as an ambassador of the company you work in or with or for. And that's, that's part of it. And then if you've got a strong product, that is what your customers and clients actually want to buy from you. So you know, how you're promoting that and getting the message out about your product or your service is really key and vital as well.

Shireen: Yeah, so presumably, you don't have a big team behind you. And it's, it's a business that more a lifestyle business that you're not intending to sell one day, is that right?

Chrissie: Correct. Yes. I mean, entrepreneur, lawyer, my company is very much a solo consultancy where I have experts that I work with on projects. So yeah, so it's very much my own company as a solo practice. But I actively work with all the time with experts to deliver projects that will require different expertise.

Shireen: Basically, how how do you spend your time nowadays working in terms of robot lawyer, Lisa, and doing this sort of consultancy or speaking about naked lawyer related work?

Chrissie: Yeah, it's a mix of the two at the moment, because obviously, Robert, lawyer, Lisa has been running for three years now that does have a team of people that I manage that are all remote workers. So I spend half my time on that and half my time on entrepreneur, lawyer. So my speaking and consultancy, and mentoring. And writing is half my time, the other half is working in an on robot lawyer, Lisa, still very much a startup we've we've achieved great things. It's obviously a hugely challenging time right now. COVID-19, as you can probably appreciate, so it's about juggling both of those and from my own perspective about you know, where to focus going forward. But there is a, there's already a need thereof, that I've received some inquiries that I wasn't expecting for new consultants or work related to marketing and branding. Because I think that lawyers and law firms and chambers have realized that when they've been forced to change, I go online, even just for communication and it purposes to continue working remotely. And with their clients online and digitally. They, they from what they're saying is saying we won't return to the old way of working. And that also means the old way of how we relate to clients or get clients or keep clients as well. So they've come across the naked lawyer book, it's still out there still being sold. And I've been approached already by a handful of partners in law firms, who said, are you able to come and help us? So I feel like I've stepped back in time. 10 years is how it all triggered off back in 2009 2010. Because we're going through another recession or even a depression, let's hope not. I think there's, there's a need a real need and a real desire by lawyers to think very carefully now about their strategy going forward. Because this will work, we are walking into a new norm, we might be walking into a new regulatory framework environment as well, where there's going to be increasing even more competition. And so I can see that at some of my time. Now going forward, I will be doing more consultancy and mentorship. Speaking side of things, it'll be interesting to see. Obviously, I've done a lot of my speaking engagements which are in person, those fell by the wayside at the start of the year, understandably so because, you know, I was due to go out into Asia and America and South Africa. But all of those were canceled due to COVID, 19. And a lot of the conference events as such, understandably, the hosts are reluctant at this point in time to plan too far ahead, because we're still dealing with the unknown. We don't know how long this is going to go on, or how it might flare up again, in different nations. However, obviously, there are lots more speakers now doing online video webinars, as alternatives, but the business model may be quite different. So there's obviously the opportunity there where I've been asked or will be asked to do more keynotes or panels online, which I'd love to do. I mean, it's something I advocated years ago and I would always say to hosts look, rather than fly me halfway around the world, why don't we just do this as a video conference where you can put an extra screen up and we'll do it that way rather than than in person but a lot of event hosts To understand that we do want the speakers there in person because delegates like to press the flesh they like to network they like to think your brains when you're there. So I would like to see that that would reignite at some point. Personally, I think it won't be this year, I think we're looking at 2021. Before, understandably, event organizers will be thinking seriously about putting big events on when they feel comfortable and know a bit more about the virus.

Shireen: Yeah, it's good to hear that law firms are thinking of working on their brands and marketing. So let's just finish by asking you Chrissy, what is a personal brand that you admire? And why?

Chrissie: Oh, gosh. Oprah Winfrey?

Shireen: Yes. I think absolutely, yes.

Chrissie: I think that's because she's just got such a huge brand in, in her good works. The fact that she has proven that as a woman, and as a black woman, she has been hugely successful in bringing, shall we say? Challenging themes and subjects into the media and very high profile. And then use that as well for good causes. So helping people, for example, with fitness and wellbeing, to raise issues that are fundamental to humankind. So using her brand in a really positive way to bring about positive change. And I think, you know, she's got a very strong personal brand, if you just say Oprah Winfrey, lots of things pop into your head about the lady, that that I absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think personal brand, it's easy to think of the people who are obviously in the media or who are celebrities, or heads of state footballers, that kind of thing, because that's natural. You know, but David Beckham is a fantastic brand, if you think it's just Beck's the name. And then what you think about, well, you think of his football, of course you do. But then you think about all of his other ventures that he's involved in with his whiskey. So he's using his personal brand to promote different types of products, or the company's off the back of the strength of his personal brand. You know, you look at personal brands now of celebrities, where if they're on Instagram, as such, and they've got millions of followers, they're able to just attract, you know, advertising deals, the fact that they have millions of people who hang on every word that they say. But there are people like you and me sharing who are just ordinary, everyday people making their way in life making a living, who have a profile online, that they there, it's about getting your expertise, they're known for their expertise in what they do, and how they go about doing it, you know, as a thought leader, or an expert in a particular field, which is really important. And so you have personal brands within communities, as such. So my idea of a personal brand is the communities that I tend to step into that I can probably give lots of examples of, whereas there'll be hundreds of 1000s of other personal brands in those different networks and communities that are niches that are really highly relevant to people who share similar leisure interests or business interests, for example. Micro communities, yeah, you know, Elon Musk, you know, that the space community, you probably think in Richard Branson, Elon Musk, NASA, you know, people within NASA, you know, the mathematicians and what have you. Hanson robotics as a firm and the people involved in all of that, and then certain personal personalities within those industries and sectors will stand out more than others.

Shireen: Yeah, I think it's so important in the 21st century, for people to actually realize that they need to have a personal brand and not hide behind their businesses.

Chrissie: Well, it's vital. And I think if you notice, all of the top CEOs in the world have strong national brands. And there's a reason for that. It's so that customers can actually relate to the company. It still wants to have a human face to the company.

Shireen: Are lawyers doing this enough to think?

Chrissie: No, no, it's, it still surprises me actually, you know, this is 10 years since I set about doing this. And I, I had to read a really interesting tweet a few days ago. And it was a tweet by a partner in one of the top law firms, you know, what we classed as a top 20. And we'd commented and said, I've been talking to my colleagues for the last year about embracing technology about how we go about getting clients and marketing and we've done nothing Now we find ourselves in this hole and this problem now. And I just really thought, well, the last year this, this process should have happened 10 years ago, this process should have started 10 years ago, you know, the internet, digital media, using LinkedIn, Twitter, your personal brand, your online marketing or whatever. A lot of lawyers and law firms have taken too long. And it's still not a majority, you know, when you look at, you know, the technology side of things as well, using technology as a marketing tool to attract clients, you know, a lot of law firms using technology for the wrong purpose, they're not getting the right return on investment, because we're using it as just a marketing gimmick, which isn't right, well, there's no right or wrong, but it certainly isn't the right way or purpose, you should be looking at why you're going to use technology law firm, that there's lots of questionable things happening. And there's a lot that still hasn't happened. And I'm still surprised that I'm being asked to consult on this subject. That to me, is, you know, old school, this, you know, a topic that I'm still quite shocked at how there are many, many 10s Hundreds 1000s of lawyers out there. And I'm just talking, you know, in the UK, as well, as globally, that, you know, haven't even heard of some basic tools like zoom, you know, or Skype, you know, and I just find that really shocking, actually, I mean, obviously, they're all aware of it now, because they're all working remotely forced to use these tools. But, you know, imagine if that could be the same about, you know, do you really understand the importance of personal brand, together with a product brand together with a firm brand, you know, this message has been out there, maybe not all joined up. I mean, I, I did that for a purpose, because I know, it's really powerful. But there's certainly lots of other brilliant brand strategists out there, who talk about how to devise a personal brand. And then separately, there's brand strategy, it's all about company brand. And then there's obviously other brand strategists about product or service brand. So, you know, it's about joining the dots, and having the connectedness to bring them together and to use them in the right way to really have a powerful proposition into the marketplace that will attract those ideal clients. Because part about being brave about a lawyer as well, it's actually turn away the stuff that you shouldn't be doing. You know, and so it's okay to not do some of the stuff you don't want to do, or that you have to do and just say no, that doesn't fit with my true calling, or my true expertise in how I know, there's a fit between me and my personality and characteristic as a personal brand. And what I'm doing for my client, you need to be working with the right clients that fit with with your expertise and how you position that personal brand to attract those clients as well. There's still quite a few lawyers that take work just for the sake of it rather than thinking actually, this isn't the right fit. And it's really important when you have team dynamics to get the right lawyer who has the right personal brand and the characteristics and the traits and the skill sets in a team for a particular client. And I have seen that at work. And it works brilliantly when it's done. Right. And when it isn't. Obviously, there's more. There's more challenges throughout the project when that's the case.

Shireen: Yeah. Wow, that's really interesting. Thank you very much indeed, Chrissy.

Chrissie: Thank you, Shireen. I've really enjoyed it. And I wish you every success, I think the only thing I haven't mentioned about and just quickly say this is what part of my business background coming into play then becoming a lawyer. I had a real keen interest in IP law. Because obviously, when I was dealing with marketing and branding in businesses and the businesses I was working with, I could see that that was a really crucial and critical area going forward in the next 1020 30 years. Because I could see that as, as obviously more online businesses evolved, IP protection and exploitation was going to be a huge area, and absolutely crucial for protecting brands, you know, protecting trademarks, protecting personal brands, images, image rights, and what have you. So the the area that you're in, you know that it's absolutely I don't think business people really appreciate how fundamental IP is in relating in relation to their brands. So you know, before, think about having a personal brand or a product brand, or a company brand, you know, looking at the names, they should actually go and talk to a solicitor before they even register a name or the company.

Shireen: Exactly, you have to look at IP strategically in order to get powerful IP.

Chrissie: You do because you know if you've come up with a great name, well that's great, but if if you're infringing somebody else's name or or similar logo or strapline somewhere else in the UK or internationally, then you're going to limit the A footprint that you can have with a unique brand, a personal brand, or a product brand and a company brand.

Shireen: There's so much more to protecting brands than trademarks, you know, people tend to understand trademark registration. But there's so many other aspects of it, which is why I'm writing my book to integrate branding with IP.

 Chrissie: Well, it just because I mean, the design, right, you know, the the logo, the design, it's quite simple, isn't it? So, yeah, there's so much to think about, and I don't think business people actually appreciate that. So if, you know, I'd love to read your book when it's out, and particularly if it's focused for business people to understand because it's, I mean, it's yes, it is. Yes, it's really, really important because it would save a lot of time and money because if you got this wrong, then you've got to backtrack and you've got to reinvest. You know, some people have had to destroy all of their company literature, and website logos and all the rest of it and faff around with accountants getting names changed at Companies House and all the rest. It's really, really a crucial subject. And, and, you know, if you're gonna write a book on it Well, fantastic. I'll be I'll be your first ambassador, Robert.

Shireen: Thank you, Chrissy. Lovely speaking to you then. Bye. Likewise. Thanks. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of Brand Tuned, where we aim to answer the question, what does it take to create a successful business and brand? I'd love it. If you would take a moment to give me a review. If you have any questions, send me a message. You can find me on LinkedIn, or most other social media platforms, or on my personal website, shireensmith.com.